Furious Fastback

[broady_6]

Always a sod, but better to catch a brake problem now than at 70mph on the motorway. If youre doing a full system flush, I highly recommend changing to DOT 5. It is not hydroscopic like DOT4 or 5.1. So its ideal for our cars which are laid up over winter. You wont get water in the system which leads to these sticky pistons.

It will require giving your system a damn good clean internally, but if you doing new hoses and I assume youll be taking your calipers apart to remove what ever is making it drag, it doesnt leave much else to clean. So you might as well go for DOT5. The other added benifit is, it doesnt need changing every 2 years.

[purplepeter]

Definitely replace the flexy's whist you're there
Keep the rubber bung- New ones tend to not fit very well
feed inlet elbow Part number is 311611153A
https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/oem/311611153a (£8 delivery!)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ATE-03-3390-00 ... B00AJRX84Y
https://www.csp-shop.com/en/wheels-brak ... 1062a.html

I'd have a look at the rubber pipes in the low pressure side- I suspect it's that stuff that heritage sells, but just check some bugger hasn't used fuel pipe rather than the original blue brake hose

Do you know what your front brakes are?- can't quite see if it's type 3? I know you said golf on the back

[Rhysos]

Always a sod, but better to catch a brake problem now than at 70mph on the motorway.

Exactly! Luckily I was just moving along at 30mph and nothing dramatic happened. These things happen and thoroughly going through the brake system is never a bad idea and will give piece of mind that everything has been refreshed.

If youre doing a full system flush, I highly recommend changing to DOT 5. It is not hydroscopic like DOT4 or 5.1. So its ideal for our cars which are laid up over winter. You wont get water in the system which leads to these sticky pistons.

Thanks for the suggestion, Broady. I recall a few months back on your thread you switched out the old DOT4 fluid for DOT5. I didn’t investigate it at the time, but having just jumped into the rabbit hole I can see the virtues of making the change for classic cars that don’t get used over the winter. It is more expensive, but should pay for itself over the long term as it won’t need frequent flushing and brake components won’t seize up. Sounds like the way forward!

Out of interest, which DOT5 brand did you use and how much did you need to refill the system and bleed? Doesn’t seem to be commonly stocked, so I imagine I will need to order online.

[Rhysos]

Thanks for the links, Pete. I was struggling to find the correct inlet pipe. Found a generic one sold by the usual VW vendors, but if I can get hold of a direct ATE replacement then all the better. Why do companies have to sting so much on postage though, grrrr! I will shop around, but it is good to know its available from Autodoc and Amazon if I need it.

Keep the rubber bung- New ones tend to not fit very well

The rubber bung is wrecked around the top lip. It could maybe go again as the internal section of it is good (so should seal), but really it needs replacing:

IMG_2573.jpeg (257.53 KiB) Viewed 1457 times

I will see if Dave has a spare one when I pop over to hunt for a dizzy.

I'd have a look at the rubber pipes in the low pressure side- I suspect it's that stuff that heritage sells, but just check some bugger hasn't used fuel pipe rather than the original blue brake hose

Good prompt; I may as well renew the rubber low-pressure hose whilst I am at it, Heritage sell the blue stuff.

Do you know what your front brakes are?- can't quite see if it's type 3? I know you said golf on the back

Yes, the car has rear brake discs (Golf Mk2). Best I can tell, the front callipers are standard Type 3 (ATE):

IMG_2572.jpeg (292.97 KiB) Viewed 1457 times

IMG_2548.jpeg (301.51 KiB) Viewed 1457 times

[broady_6]

Always a sod, but better to catch a brake problem now than at 70mph on the motorway.

Exactly! Luckily I was just moving along at 30mph and nothing dramatic happened. These things happen and thoroughly going through the brake system is never a bad idea and will give piece of mind that everything has been refreshed.

If youre doing a full system flush, I highly recommend changing to DOT 5. It is not hydroscopic like DOT4 or 5.1. So its ideal for our cars which are laid up over winter. You wont get water in the system which leads to these sticky pistons.

Thanks for the suggestion, Broady. I recall a few months back on your thread you switched out the old DOT4 fluid for DOT5. I didn’t investigate it at the time, but having just jumped into the rabbit hole I can see the virtues of making the change for classic cars that don’t get used over the winter. It is more expensive, but should pay for itself over the long term as it won’t need frequent flushing and brake components won’t seize up. Sounds like the way forward!

Out of interest, which DOT5 brand did you use and how much did you need to refill the system and bleed? Doesn’t seem to be commonly stocked, so I imagine I will need to order online.

Ive done a number of cars now. its 100% worth it. Ive even done my 944, which has seen a few track days. Its coped just fine. You will find the pedal is a tiny bit more spongy. But unless youre going to start doing 6 hour endurance races, youre unlikely to notice any difference. Ive bought mine from ebay. Either of these below, but because ive done multiple cars, I cant be sure how much I used. My best guess would be 500ml will be plenty.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122258539179
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234550489824

As per my thread, I recommend running some brake cleaner through the system (I know yours is going to be mostly dismantled) to get all the old mineral fluid out.

[broady_6]

Yes, the car has rear brake discs (Golf Mk2). Best I can tell, the front callipers are standard Type 3 (ATE):

IMG_2572.jpeg

IMG_2548.jpeg

They do look like type 3 brakes. Id also recommend new bleed nipples while youre at it. I do appreciate were spending a lot of your money for you!

[Rhysos]

Cheers Broady, I appreciate you digging out those links and will get some DOT5 fluid on order. I’m planning to do it right, so I will be removing the front callipers, free-up moving parts and will refresh with a lick of paint. I will likely do the same with the master cylinder as it is currently sporting a fine layer of rust. It is an ATE unit and operates well, so worth preserving.

In terms of cleaning the system through with brake cleaner (to rid traces of the old DOT4), would this not damage the internal components of the master cylinder?

Id also recommend new bleed nipples while youre at it. I do appreciate were spending a lot of your money for you!

It's all good I already have new bleed nipples on my shopping list – along with some rubber dust caps

[broady_6]

Not at all, here is the process ive used multiple times. Ive lifted it directly from my thread

"The next job ive almost done is the swap over to DOT 5. Not really much to photograph. I have a pressure bleeder which I connect to the compressor at 15psi. I blew the fluid out of all 4 corners. Then filled the system with brake cleaner and let it sit for an hour before blowing this through too. Once it was fully dry I filled with DOT 5 and bleed away. That was Christmas Eve, I havent been back to the car yet, but the pedal didnt feel 100%, so ill be bleeding though again before I go for a test drive of these 3 "easy" wins. I hope."

Brake and clutch cleaner is safe for use on any brake system components. Brake caliper kits are readily available too.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332709287512 ... R6jjwunVZQ

[Rhysos]

Not at all, here is the process ive used multiple times. Ive lifted it directly from my thread

Good stuff, I shall follow this approach to the system flush. Good to know that it won't wreck the master cylinder.

Brake caliper kits are readily available too.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332709287512 ... R6jjwunVZQ

Awesome, I shall pick up a rebuild kit. Having thought it over, I will also add a couple more things to my shopping list and get some fresh pads and a corresponding pad fitting kit

Now I just have to carve out the time to do all of this over the coming weeks (easier said than done). Always the way; what starts out as a small repair task turns into a bigger job than anticipated

[937carrera]

Now I just have to carve out the time to do all of this over the coming weeks (easier said than done). Always the way; what starts out as a small repair task turns into a bigger job than anticipated

Bigger.... and better !

[Rhysos]

Bigger.... and better !

That's the spirit! Bigger and better ...than it was!

[purplepeter]

https://www.vwtype3and4club.org.uk/_doc ... rtswap.htm

Speak to Dave, in case he's got any bleed nipples- Rear are standard 7mm, Fronts are a bit funny- I got some from Paul Dickinson
Pad fitting kit is Volvo 240 Rear, same year
Discs are Porsche 914/ vw type 4 same year
Bearings Mk2 Golf rear
Pads can be a pain- some are too thick
I'd advocate a couple of horseshoe brake clips from Dave- I know he's got some & it gives you the security of having them when you do the job

And, prepare for the nightmare that bleeding type 3 brakes can be.. Fortunately My Father never owned a Type 3, but nonetheless, I learnt a wide vocabulary of choice Naval expressions whilst helping daddy bleed brakes on various cars

[Rhysos]

Thanks Peter, that is some useful information to have at hand, especially as I'm currently ordering up the brake parts. Yes, I've heard it said a few times that bleeding brakes on a type 3 can be a 'challenge', so I can see myself deploying some choice expletives to vent the frustration

[broady_6]

Im sure ive said it before. But it bares repreating. Home made pressure bleeder. If you have a compressor. This works wonders, never had an issue bleeding any car, even a type 3.

https://www.vwtype3and4club.org.uk/foru ... 725#p72968

[Rhysos]

Im sure ive said it before. But it bares repreating. Home made pressure bleeder. If you have a compressor. This works wonders, never had an issue bleeding any car, even a type 3.

https://www.vwtype3and4club.org.uk/foru ... 725#p72968

Thanks Broady, I did see your DIY pressure bleeder – simple, but effective. When using this method, I guess you need really good moisture traps to prevent pushing any water droplets into the brake system? I have one of these, but it needs a good clean up as it hasn't been used in donkeys! Should do the trick or could be easily adapted to create something similar to yours:

IMG_2699.jpeg (503.83 KiB) Viewed 1286 times

[Rhysos]

I managed to get a small window of time to work on the car over the weekend and removed the callipers ready for reconditioning:

IMG_2685.jpeg (305.69 KiB) Viewed 1285 times

Some evidence on the end of the pistons that a previous owner has tried to wrestle then with a pair of mole grips. Not great, but I should be able to carefully dress this flat with my Dremmel tool and a small grinding wheel.

Look at the rubber boot on this one. It was all tangled and pinched under the brake pads:

IMG_2702.jpeg (222.18 KiB) Viewed 1285 times

That could not have been helping matters. Also, the anti-rotation/retaining plates were absent, so maybe overtime this affected brake operation. It’s all good, correct parts are on order and they will be as good as new once sorted.

Whilst I was at it, I measured the thickness of the existing discs:

IMG_2693.jpeg (299.69 KiB) Viewed 1285 times

I cannot find anything conclusive with regards to wear limits for late Type 3s. I know that they use the slightly thicker (11mm) discs up front and these are now down to 9mm. Should these now be replaced or do they have a few more miles on them yet?

[purplepeter]

Just confirm that Your caliper bolts are spaced at 75mm ish?
If so, I don't think you'll get the anti rattle plates in & I'm not convinced (though might be wrong) that late cars had them- the dome inside the caliper piston is designed to stop the piston going skew whiff
My books are over in the garage, so will try to check wear limit later

[Rhysos]

Thanks Peter, it would be good to know the wear limit, but no rush. I’m likely to replace these discs soon(ish) anyway. I found what appears to be an affordable seller of Sebro discs (half the price of Heritage): https://www.design911.co.uk/p/brake-dis ... rsche-914/

Yes, the callipers have a bolt spacing of 75mm. Incidentally, I went to see Dave a couple of days ago (he was asking about you!). I didn’t find a distributor, but I did find some anti-rotation plates that I bought of him along with the elusive ATE fill pipe (result!) and a few odds and sods. Whilst looking at brake parts, I could see that VW used 2 types of anti-rotation plates in the Type 3 front callipers. The earlier brakes had slightly shorter versions and look near identical. Held up next to each other you could see the subtle difference in the spacing of the hole for the retention pin to pass through. I checked this against my calliper last night and it seemed to align (although the pistons were at the wrong angle to fit it neatly into the recessed section on the crown).

[Rhysos]

Brake parts orders have started to turn up, but I am still not in receipt of everything for the calliper rebuilds. Whilst waiting, I have been breaking down the old callipers. I used a spare piece of brake pipe screwed into the fluid port at the back of the calliper and on the other end I used a small jubilee clip to secure to my trusty bike pump (having removed the bike valve attachment). This set-up worked really well to pop out the pistons:

IMG_2722.jpeg (510.21 KiB) Viewed 1187 times

A couple of pistons were stubborn as hell. Some only came halfway out, others wouldn’t budge and required a lot of penetrating oil and taps with a rubber mallet on the casing on the calliper. Another trick that helped was using a G-clamp to push the stuck ones back in, then apply compressed air again to work them loose:

IMG_2714.jpeg (375.48 KiB) Viewed 1187 times

After a lot of patience, I had the pistons all removed. A few scratches and knicks, but hopefully the will be good enough to go again once cleaned up with some 2000 grit wet and dry:

IMG_2734.jpeg (187.05 KiB) Viewed 1187 times

The calliper bodies themselves also need the bores cleaning up, but are good from the seal recess down. However, there is quite a bit of corrosion along the top edge (above the seal). I will clean up best I can and hopefully any pitting here won’t affect brake operation as it doesn't come into contact with the pistons.

[purplepeter]

When your discs arrive, please could you weigh them for me?- I failed in my quest to find any cheaper, but I have a single nos disc that I'd like to make into a pair at some point
If the caliper kits don't have it, buy yourself a tiny tub of Red Rubber Grease, DO Not use the silicon grease they might send
Meths was the traditional cleaning fluid for brake components, so use that or brake cleaner- resist the temptation to use carb cleaner, it's got silicon in it
If you speak to the Hall's before Stonor, please give them my love- My brain is on overload at the mo, trying to get my new front axle etc together

[Rhysos]

I appreciate you looking for a cheaper source, but it sounds like that is now the cost. I will get my brakes back together and get a few miles in with the existing discs for the time being (I can only focus on one thing at a time). I will probably get discs ordered up next month or so.

Thanks for the tip about using Red Rubber grease. However, I am not sure that this applies in my case as I am flushing the system and switching to DOT5 brake fluid (which is silicone based).

If I see Dave and Anne before you, I will pass that on! Good luck rebuilding the front axle, I am sure you will win!

I am hoping to get the callipers into paint later, they came up pretty good after a round in the blast cabinet (pistons and bores safely taped off and fluid port plugged):

IMG_2744.jpeg (360.32 KiB) Viewed 1038 times

[purplepeter]

I was just talking to a friend, who concurred that I should just fit the new ones , I've never measured brake discs in my life, as I tend to just look at them & say that's a bit crusty, I'll replace them, which is exactly what i said a few weeks ago when i stripped the old axle, so I have a pair at 10mm if they're any good to you? & I have a new pair already in stock & new bearings to match

[Rhysos]

Thanks Peter, I will take those old discs off of your hands. 10mm is still a reasonable thickness and a whole 1mm more than the material on mine. I’ll let you know when I’m next passing by Bath and perhaps we can coordinate me picking them up.

Quick update on yesterday’s progress. I split the callipers after blasting (to prevent any abrasion to the mating surfaces):

IMG_2750.jpeg (349.87 KiB) Viewed 1008 times

I then had access to clean up the crusty lip of of the bores with 1200 grit wet and dry which really knocked down the peaks;

IMG_2748.jpeg (263.81 KiB) Viewed 1008 times

I then masked everything up and degreased with methylated spirits. Improvised a spray set up in my garden:

IMG_2757.jpeg (350.32 KiB) Viewed 1008 times

I’m bringing back the ‘Furious’ spirit and going bright red, which is what they were back in the day. Plus, it will match in with the red rear Golf MK2 callipers

I got a 3 coats on yesterday, but letting it dry for 24hours before I put the top coats on. I will post the results once I have finished with a sealing layer of lacquer. Just taking my time to get a decent finish.

[broady_6]

Im sure ive said it before. But it bares repreating. Home made pressure bleeder. If you have a compressor. This works wonders, never had an issue bleeding any car, even a type 3.

https://www.vwtype3and4club.org.uk/foru ... 725#p72968

Thanks Broady, I did see your DIY pressure bleeder – simple, but effective. When using this method, I guess you need really good moisture traps to prevent pushing any water droplets into the brake system? I have one of these, but it needs a good clean up as it hasn't been used in donkeys! Should do the trick or could be easily adapted to create something similar to yours:


IMG_2699.jpeg

Yeah ive got a trap, and I routinely empty my tank. But it isnt that different to using a pressure bleeder on a tyre. Who knows how wet or dry the air is in there?

[broady_6]

Brake parts orders have started to turn up, but I am still not in receipt of everything for the calliper rebuilds. Whilst waiting, I have been breaking down the old callipers. I used a spare piece of brake pipe screwed into the fluid port at the back of the calliper and on the other end I used a small jubilee clip to secure to my trusty bike pump (having removed the bike valve attachment). This set-up worked really well to pop out the pistons:


IMG_2722.jpeg


A couple of pistons were stubborn as hell. Some only came halfway out, others wouldn’t budge and required a lot of penetrating oil and taps with a rubber mallet on the casing on the calliper. Another trick that helped was using a G-clamp to push the stuck ones back in, then apply compressed air again to work them loose:


IMG_2714.jpeg


After a lot of patience, I had the pistons all removed. A few scratches and knicks, but hopefully the will be good enough to go again once cleaned up with some 2000 grit wet and dry:


IMG_2734.jpeg


The calliper bodies themselves also need the bores cleaning up, but are good from the seal recess down. However, there is quite a bit of corrosion along the top edge (above the seal). I will clean up best I can and hopefully any pitting here won’t affect brake operation as it doesn't come into contact with the pistons.

Ingenious piston popper.

I also 2nd peter, use the red rubber grease. Its a great seal preserver.