1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

For Type 3 and 4 restoration projects, interesting history, adventure trips etc
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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 20th April 2019 - 8:36pm

Yeah id have been rolling sooner if it wasnt for paint and flu which grew into a chest infection. Its been 3 weeks now and im still suffering the tail end of it. So it stopped and slowed work down. I was gutted, I nearly threw a few things around the garage, but id have only put a f*@king dent in the car so i went outside and punched the garage door a few times. Made a drink and watched TV for half an hour. A deep breath later I got back in there and did the job, rubbed it down. 2 Coats of primer and 3 coats of colour, then a good IR bake.

Id say the shot on the drive way is the best. But until its had a proper colour sand and polish its hard to tell. Even in the metal its got a few different tones where ive had ago at polishing Vs not.

I will take it for an MOT this time, simply because its been in so many bits that a second look over wont hurt. A nice example being after 25 miles of shake down Just entering the village i notice the steering wheel neutral potion had changed so I nursed it the half a mile home and had a look under the front to find one track rod nice and tight, the other not so much. Hopefully ill have caught all the bits before i take it out again. But im going to try for an MOT a week today just for peace of mind, then i dont expect ill bother with it any more. I'll just been up my routine as I do with the race cars at work.

Haha I expect ill still hear it, the aircooled rattle always makes it ways forward, even in a camper.

Im guessing its a balance issue, and i need to check what the distributor is doing. I fed it a bit more fuel and its smoothed things out, but heading for the upper limit of CO%. Still its ample good enough for now, it doesnt get hot and runs a sensible pace. I can work a little slower now.
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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 20th April 2019 - 9:54pm

broady_6 wrote:
20th January 2019 - 6:28pm

Reading practical classics, their workshop section had a piece about overhauling small motors, more specifically wiper motors. That was all the motivation i needed to do mine.

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So it turns out this isnt the correct resting position, ive got downward sweep of about an inch before it moves on up again
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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 22nd April 2019 - 8:59pm

It was a right fiddle but I managed to take the lever off the spindle move it around and get the nut back on with the dash still fully assembled. Whats annoying is I didn't move it far enough! Its much better and I now know how to do it. A just for a more leisurely time though.

Ive cover 50 miles this weekend, and all though its been going fairly well. its always had somewhat of a hesitation. I gone from basics 3 times and it didn't cure it. So I had the carb off as the RH accelerator pump was a bit weak. The more I fiddled the less it worked. Ive blown it all through again even though it was still all nice and clean from the ultrasonic cleaning. I only had 3 used diaphragms and none produced a flow. I planned to buy a new one as a suck it and see. But it would seem you can only buy the sodding kits! Or get one from ebay at £10 a go.

The ball valve/ no return valve moves up and down freely so I can only assume theres no suction from the pump.
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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 27th April 2019 - 9:30am

The news is largely good then. Ive got around 60 shakedown miles on the car. A short to do list has arisen. But nothing that is a disaster. The bonnet is still crap, so ignore that.

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The job I needed to do was to get the bonnet springs on the second hook. Something id not been looking forward too and wasnt really sure how id do it.

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After trying with my own brute force, some take and mole grips i got no where. So I ended up putting a strap through some coils of the spring. Tying it off to my work bench and then reversing ever so slightly. The whole time the cigar clipper was pulsing.

This photo shows the strap around the hook rather than the coils. This was during an experimental phase and I forgot to photograph the final, I nearly said solution. But thats something else!

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The springs are rather strong, it dragged the bench backwards across the the workshop.

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Ultimately it got the job done and the bonnet doesnt try to decapitate you when you let go.

Job two, id had a bit of trouble setting the engine up. Always hunting, and kangarooing at high revs low throttle. Under normal condition it drove rather nicely, happily sitting at 60 and not getting hot. After some investigation I found the RH accelerator pump to be weak. I too the carb off for a clean out and inspection. This is what I found inside the pump.

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Now I knew this was there, but I didnt know (I still havent been able to understand why) this corrosion was detrimental to the pumps operation. Both ports are clear and the ball valve is moving freely. Ive ultrasonically cleaned another body with a much better looking pump.

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I then swapped all the parts over from one to the other, so I am using the same jets, same diaphragm, top, float ect. I want to change as few parts as possible to isolate the issue. So its essentially the same carb apart from the lower half of the casting its self.

I primed it with petrol and the pump operated perfectly a dozen times on the bench.

Back on the car and it runs much better. Still not at 100% but a little bit of set up work should sort it out. The engine even sounds smoother and is even happier to bimble along at 60mph. With noticeably less throttle.

Tracking wise the car is pretty close, I gave it a quick tweek with my optical gauges. The rear drivers side sits about 15mm lower then the passenger side, so ive got a little adjustment to make. The only other thing for you today is some sound proofing.

I needed something to give the carpet a bit of padding as well as reduce the tin rattle from the floor. I found this Dodo linner.

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Very easy to work with and I could already tell the difference before id stuck it down. At £30 for 10 sheets of closed cell (It wont absorb water) its perfect for the floor.

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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 27th April 2019 - 9:53am

Getting closer :)

Job one - Next time, or for others, could you use a small ratchet strap, that would save rearranging the garage

Job two - I'm quite confused. You replaced the accelerator pump housing, this improved the operation of the pump (I can't see why either) and improved light throttle running (just as strange as the accelerator pump shouldn't be doing anything at all in those conditions)

Do you think something else may have changed, solved an air leak, different float height, hidden foreign matter removed or something ??

I think you're going to have to swap the housings over again to confirm :lol:
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 27th April 2019 - 12:33pm

That is a small ratchet strap. The strap isn't the issue. The problem is having something sturdy enough to work against. A nice local tree or lamp post would be handy.

Maybe that casting had other corrosion in areas I cant see, on other fuel circuits. Float heights the same. It has improved running during pump conditions too. Definitely didn't fix and air leak. I sprayed so much around all the joints previously to find an air leak. there were none.

Im not swapping back, as much as I want to learn what happened. I also want to enjoy driving it and in time get to the turbo engine.
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 27th April 2019 - 12:55pm

Of course it is a ratchet strap, I didn't look too closely because of the driving the car back comment. Block of wood between the bench and front tyre will sort it next time,or screw the bench down.

I don't think you saw my :lol:
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 27th April 2019 - 2:28pm

I ended up adding more weight to the bench to cure it. A piece of wood wont work as when you reverse the car that gap between the tyre and bench increases. Its not possible to use the ratchet on the strap, or at least its not possible for me. A combination of my hand isn't strong enough and the ratchet slipping. But hopefully there wont be a next time :)

I did see it, but didn't put one myself to portray the jollity.
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 27th April 2019 - 2:43pm

Wow, strong spring if the ratchet could not be used to extend it.
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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sparkywig
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by sparkywig » 27th April 2019 - 4:11pm

Good work.
Did you get the soundproofing direct?

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 27th April 2019 - 5:35pm

937carrera wrote:
27th April 2019 - 2:43pm
Wow, strong spring if the ratchet could not be used to extend it.
The strap I used didnt have hooks on the ends so it was looped around. So obviously the tighter it got the more resistance there was to the strap sliding around at each end too in addition to stretching the spring. A straight forward pull would probably shift it.
sparkywig wrote:
27th April 2019 - 4:11pm
Good work.
Did you get the soundproofing direct?
I got it from ebay. 10 sheets is the perfect amount.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Sheets-Do ... 2749.l2649
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sparkywig
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by sparkywig » 27th April 2019 - 6:50pm

Thanks, I'll order some more to do the cab floor in the bus as well.

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 27th April 2019 - 9:33pm

Most welcome, Ive just stuck all mine down and thrown some carpets in. So ill be out for a run tomorrow and see how good it is now its all properly installed
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purplepeter
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by purplepeter » 28th April 2019 - 9:13am

I would wonder if the best way to do those springs, is to unbolt the bonnet from the hinges, then put the hinges in the closed position before attaching the spring?

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 28th April 2019 - 9:14am

In the closed position the spring is a full extension. Which would make it even harder to do.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by purplepeter » 28th April 2019 - 9:21am

oops!

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 11th May 2019 - 9:47pm

Lets see if I can remember what I was doing then.

Its more story than photos for you all now. With the local miles covered I started to spanner checked it all. The running is much improved and the engine is running nice and cool.

Some time was spent properly installing the seat belts and tidying up the brackets. I may improve on this further but that's something to do as and when. Ive also thrown the carpets in with out glue. This was just to improve the presentation for Stanford hall. Its also given me a good idea on the noise level in the car. I may yet add a little more sound proofing. So the carpets would need to come out for that.

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I cleaned out the inside of the rear bumper, applied some rust beater, a good few coats of paint and then some clear rust proofing wax. The only photo I managed to take was this before shot of the chrome.

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So last sunday up nice and early, set off at 7am with 90 miles to cover. The ole banger ate up the miles, 1 hour and 45 minutes later we were parked up in the grounds of Stanford hall. First check was to lay my hand on the engine block. I would say its warm, maybe very warm. But by no means hot after cursing along at 65mph.

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A great day out, and the car run home very nicely. I even spent a spell on the M1 at 70mph. Its still got a hesitation that feels like out of balance carbs. But theyre perfectly balanced. Im suspecting more and more that its an air leak. But that's a minor issue. Initially it had been burning a bit of oil, but now 300 miles have been covered it doesn't use a drop. I expect it was down the fact it had been stood for about 2 years sticky rings and rough bores. Call it "run in" now eh.

The brakes have also improved at the 180 mile trip, I bought new rear drums a few years ago and have only just fitted them. It would seem theyre crap and oval. Or were to begin with. The more ive used them the smoother braking has got. The fronts work well and I can lock both wheels.

I had intended to MOT before Stanford hall but the weather was crap and I wasn't prepared to get the car covered in salt. So that fateful day came today. I was using it more as a duplicate inspection of my work, rather than a MOT.

All 4 corners of the brakes passed with flying colours, one or two loose fasteners were found. These were tightened and respected, a current MOT was issued. I drove home a happy chap with a bit more peace of mind that the car was safe and solid.

I hope you enjoyed my spelling mistakes, im sure if included a few
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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 14th May 2019 - 7:58am

Editor wrote:
28th July 2016 - 2:03am
OK, found it on orange fastback pages. Water with some bicarbonate of soda, with anodes (to +) and part to clean electrolytically as cathode (-). Battery charger works, or welder (with caution and lower setting if available)!
Just a note, I've heard it is not advisable to use this method of rust removal on stressed items - suspension components eg, due to hydrogen embrittlement. Anyone know if that's correct?
At long last I got round to some research. Mainly because im playing with electrolysis again.

It is largely not correct for this process. A tiny percentage of hydrogen may be absorbed but the majority escapes to admosphere. If it was a real concern then baking the item at over 150 degrees c for an hour will help. There is also the natural loss or hydrogren from the steel over time. So its unlikely to be an issue.

The reverse of this process, Ie metal plating a piece of cast iron/steel will introduce hydrogren and it can become and issue because the plating "traps" it is. Again baking the item is the key, but at a higher 200 degrees for up to 4 hours apprently. Im no scientist/chemist. Just a bit of research I did last night.
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by Aaronslimvw » 15th May 2019 - 5:35pm

Awesome! Well done! Top job!!
Drove mine down from north Wales to the early edition show in Northampton at the week end, a 5 hour trip each way.. surprising how well they go if you just cruise it at 60.

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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 15th May 2019 - 5:38pm

Unfortunately I wasn't at Stanford Hall so missed out on seeing it in the metal.

Time for a few non technical pictures so we can see what she looks like ?
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 19th May 2019 - 7:58pm

I will get round to them, I promise.

But first, I am at my wits end with wheel geometry. So any gurus out there read on and tell me where im going wrong. Ill probably ramble on a bit, but I want to learn.

Ive got a set of dunlop optical gauges. Not disssimilar to these.

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They were set up as per, offer one up to the wheel to space the pegs to the rim diameter, this was translated to the second gauge. Then oposite pegs were set just touching. I then looked down the scope and aligned the hair with the line on the reflection in the mirror. Then I slip the scale to read zero and locked the scale down.

So ive had trouble with the car pulling to the left, so I went back to basics. All tyre pressures were set correctly, im on standard wheels, stanard off set. Next I checked the suspensions was level. The drivers rear was down about 10mm. I corrected this.

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I went for a 10 mile drive and this gave the suspension a good bounce around allowing itto settle. It was nicely level.

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Pre flight checks then, level at all 4 corners, tyre pressures set, car on flat and level ground.

Setting the wheels in the straight ahead position seems to be a very subjective art. My cars been in kit for and is pulling to the left, so whats straight ahead? The tyres are obviously scubbing so I can cant find a straight a head. To find the middle i turned the steering wheel from lock to lock and counted the turns, then just turned the wheel half that amount.

No matter how hard I looked I couldnt see where the wheels were pointing, it was so slight. So I used the string method, two long lengths tied to axel stands running paralell with the car. Measured against the front and rear hubs along with reference to each other at the front and back.

Getting the wheels in the ahead position was important as it says the camber is to be set with the wheel ahead.

Spec is 1deg 20' +/-20' roughly 1-1.6 degrees positive camber.

Both fronts set to 1.2. This was checked at two points on each wheel and then rolled forward half a turn and checked twice more.

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Camber set, a quick road test to settle it. 1.2 remained the reading. So i set the string up again and measured the wheel rims realtive to the paralell with the steering wheel set halfway between the two locks. This crude sketch shows the readings.

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This would make it seem obviousl why the car pulls to the left, the right front has got alot of toe in. Now with the track arm being at the back of the hubs, one would assume shortening the right hand track rod would reduce the toe on the front wheel and remove the pull to the left. But I did this and got it set much more like the near side. Is this the right thing to do?


Feeling rather pleased with myself I put my dunlop optical gauges on and it read 0.5 degrees toe in.

The specification is 40' +/- 15' toe in. This translates to 0.41 to 0.92 degress. So once again its within spec.

I then took the car for a drive and its no better what so ever. I was at this all afternoon, and no matter what I changed nor in what direction it still pulled left. after jsut 5 miles I can put my hand on a front tyre and it noticably warm, so its clearly scubbing. Nothing is bent or broken. So go on that, what the magic chant that is clearly a secret within the wheel alignment industry? Break the magicians code please before i end up paying someone to do it for me.
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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 19th May 2019 - 8:49pm

Now you're in my territory :) not this air wafting over tubes with fuel in stuff

Front wheel alignment - doing what you did by putting the rack in the middle was the right thing to do. You should then be able to set total toe using the Dunlop gauges. I don't know where you got those from, they are even older than mine :nod: . I'll assume you confirmed they were set parallel by checking them against each other before putting on the car.

Of course, because of the interaction between camber and toe you needed to set camber first. I see you used a flat bar and a digital gauge. I'm not sure whether that is better than a plumb line or not. The only gotcha's I can think of are 1. Are you sure the floor you were on is actually level, 2. How are you certain that both sides have 1.2 degrees negative camber

Coming back to the toe in, 40' toe in seems an awful lot. I'm more used to setting in the 12' to 15' range

Ride height, without wanting to be cruel, you might get away with measuring to the bottom of the wing on a "new" car, but yours is 40 years old, has just been rebuilt, so there's no certainty that the chassis is straight or that the body panels are in the right place. Any chance you can corner weight it ?

So back to front tracking. Did you leave the steering wheel alone and adjust the tracking on each side to get the total toe correct and equal on each side. After every adjustment you need to move the car back a couple of lengths, bounce the suspension and then move forward for checking. Always forward.

6mm is 50' and 2.5mm is 21' for 15" wheels so on that sheet of paper you are running 1 degree 11' toe in which is way beyond spec which I read as being a total of 40' or 20' per side from your data. Of course when driving you will have equalised that through the wheel to 35' each side, everything else being equal, and the uneven tyre heating may be an indicator of something else.

Now, back to everything else. Have you checked rear camber and rear toe. The will have a material effect on handling and rear toe in particular if is is unequal. You already have the method using the string for doing the rear measurement, the problem in the absence of a 4 wheel alignment setup is getting a true parallel down the car. Sure when doing the front you can string from the rear tyres, but not really the other way round. Best you can hope for is to get a measure for total toe, remembering your gauges are being used backwards so you need to read toe out, and then use the string to measure to the rims and use that to get an equivalence for each side. In the absence of a spec go for 5' each side.

The premise for that approach is that the front and rear axles are in the correct place and the chassis is also true. I have used spacers or different rims to equalise track front and rear to assist.

With care, people will be surprised how accurate a piece of string can be. I set a car up in Holland once using string, chalk and metal bar and a calculator. I thought I set it to 15' and when checked back at base it was actually at 13'. I also spent about 8 hours getting a Boxster rear suspension into spec last year. I just couldn't get the rear end consistent, in the end I discovered one of the bushes in a control arm was u/s giving variable measurement.

Have a think and fire any questions back :thumbsup:
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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937carrera
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by 937carrera » 19th May 2019 - 9:10pm

Here's a diagram to explain what I am thinking

....Front

/---------- I


/---------- /
David
1974 412LS Variant
1973 412LE 4 door Fastback / Saloon

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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 19th May 2019 - 9:22pm

I found the gauges on ebay some years ago, something around £50. Ive used them on 3 or 4 cars where ive changed a track rod end or ball joint ect. But obviously ive already had 1 wheel correctly aligned to work from as a datum for the total toe. This is the first time im working from "no reference" point. Yes theyre set parallel.

Floor level is checked with two separate spirit levels, on the camber gauge and one that's a meter long bubble type. Were definitely setting positive camber and not negative. Ive already made that mistake once. I sat the car up with negative camber and it drove perfectly no pulling ect. Then reread the book and its defiantly positive camber. So I corrected it and this is where the ruined handling appeared.

Toe info is also correct. Taken from my Bentley and owners handbook where I can.

Ok so im sure its level, Ive just checked against the torsion bar ends and a couple of points at the front end. Given its a hacked about old car im as sure as I can be that its level to within a mill or two. Which should be ample good enough to get the tracking set in such a way that when you let go of the steering wheels it doesn't to a 90 degree turn into the ditch.

Once the steering box and wheel was centered I left it there. I don't have a wheel lock but I didn't turn it until I next test drove the car.

I haven't been rolling the car, so theres a tip to add to the pile.

I checked the rear camber the same way, it was in spec. On the limit but in spec. Toe was 0 total but I never got as far as measuring against the string. I ran out of interest. I think I may well pony up for a laser job to set the car up since its been in so many bits. It will give me a reference to work from then.

Could well be something like that, its a bit of mess
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broady_6
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Re: 1971 VW Type 3 Fastback

Post by broady_6 » 19th May 2019 - 9:36pm

The only other thought ive just had is the bottom ball joints. The original items had slots in the bottom which were tapered. the book says the deepest part of the taper groove should be forward. My replacements don't have the taper groove, so maybe ive got one in AAF. Ill have to see how I go about figuring it out
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