Fuel pump

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eagle
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Fuel pump

Post by eagle » 24th August 2013 - 11:13am

Hi, Any recommendations for where to purchase a new fuel pump please? (1600 TP) I don't want any cheap stuff - just good honest and reliable :roll:

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Editor
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Re: Fuel pump

Post by Editor » 24th August 2013 - 12:18pm

Is that 1600 Twin carb? Most of the carb fuel pumps available are really for Beetles and don't have the pipes pointing in the right directions for a Type 3. The output pressure is also a bit lower, but I'm not convinced that's a problem. The other thing to watch out for is that there are two fuel pumps used on Beetles - those for generator and those for alternator, and they use different length push-rods. Pick the one for generator for a Type 3.

Most of the new items are Brosol from Brazil - sometimes sadly it comes down to a new Brazil fuel pump or second-hand German. My German one is still working after 40 odd years, so don't be too afraid of a second-hand German one. You may find a NOS German one, but they don't come up too often.

Heritage parts have the VW ones - you can order them through a VW dealer 113 127 205 D (probably - there's a G too, but that is very likely the alternator one). Eurocarparts do them.
Dave.

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eagle
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Re: Fuel pump

Post by eagle » 24th August 2013 - 1:07pm

Yes it is a twin carb - they're being rebuilt. What should the push rod length be please?

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by s.unsworth » 24th August 2013 - 7:57pm

For a Genuine Type 3 Twin Carb Fuel Pump ask Rhod Grubb. Last time I looked at the list of parts Rhod was still selling for John Forbes there were a couple still on the list. I have a brand new one in the original Pierburg box which I got from http://www.gowerlee.dircon.co.uk/
They said it was the last one available from their supplier in Germany but you could always ask them. If you already have an Original Type 3 Pump you could get a Repair Kit from someone like Ge.-Ma.-Classics in Germany. I do not know for certain but I think the Repair Kit internals may be the same as for a Type 1 ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Kafer-KG-B ... 597wt_1147

It says :- A new fuel pump repair kit (Overhaul).
Suitable for VW Beetle Karmann Ghia Bus T1 from BJ 8/65 with screw pump (does not apply to sealed pump)
Perfect for people who value it to keep your original pump and not to exchange it for a repro part.
The original VW part number for comparison is: 111 198 555
Some of the plastic plate of the diaphragm must be replaced with the old part to allow for smooth operation.
Ge.-Ma.-Classics
Spare Parts Shop for classic VW and Audi models

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eagle
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Re: Fuel pump

Post by eagle » 25th August 2013 - 7:14am

What size should the T piece be and is plastic or brass better?

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by s.unsworth » 25th August 2013 - 11:58am

I`ll have a look today. I think my T Piece will be original. I have had this Type 3 since 1988 and I have never changed it. I expect it is 5mm or 5.5mm. I know it is metal. I don`t think plastic would be a good idea due to the heat.

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by s.unsworth » 25th August 2013 - 1:52pm

I had a look at the Variant. The "T" piece is metal (steel I think ) 5mm outside diameter. Well at least the new black braided fuel hoses I put on say 5mm all over them. I think somone said on here they should be 5.5mm but 5mm seems fine to me. Someone correct me if I`m wrong but I think that if you have an original Beetle Fuel Pump ( the one you can take apart and fit a repair kit ) you can just unscrew the top and turn it around to get the pipes pointing the right way for a Type 3.
Anyway look at the John Forbes lists of parts for sale :-

http://forbesautomotive.co.uk.temp-www3 ... ge1127.htm

I was thinking of this one :- 311 127 025 FUEL PUMP with cover and ring

The best value I found for 5mm Fuel Hose was this by the way 10 metres for £11.99 + Postage
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-GOLF-SCIRO ... 2325wt_910

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by Editor » 25th August 2013 - 9:52pm

5mm is the original bore. If you buy the quality stuff from VW it is probably 5.5mm. That's fine too.

Be careful about cheap hose - I've had too much of it fall apart, particularly the cotton braided stuff. It's not good value if you lose gallons of fuel, or waste time changing it again after a year, assuming the car hasn't torched itself meanwhile!
Dave.

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by s.unsworth » 26th August 2013 - 9:23am

Cheap does not always mean poor quality these days. I re hosed the entire Variant and the `66 Beetle with the 5mm hose I bought off ebay, except for the 7mm bit from the tank on the Variant which I also bought off ebay, in 2011. It is top quality stuff. Far better than a lot of what the so called VW specialist suppliers send you at at lot higher cost. Both cars had the steel braided type that GSF supply. Now that was rubbish. The rubber failed in side the steel braiding with no external signs of failure !

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260486471366? ... 2746wt_910

Eagle, I notice this seller has brass "T" Pieces as well.

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by Editor » 26th August 2013 - 12:57pm

The trouble is it's a gamble - some is OK, some is absolute rubbish - worse than that it's hazardous. I don't know any way of telling the difference any more. Even a VW Audi marking can be faked. I got a pair of brake hoses from GSF that had cracked through to the reinforcement braiding within a year.

I see this hose isn't suitable for Bio fuel, but much of our fuel these days is 10% Ethanol.
Dave.

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by 69type3 » 26th August 2013 - 10:05pm

Just read your post above Dave about fuel pressure for the pump. I'm having what i thought was a type 3 pump(VW6) rebuilt but turns out it is a VW7.

It is having a NOS type 3 rebuild kit installed in it and wondered once completed if the fuel pressure issue will be of any consequence to how the car will run? You say you're not convinced the fuel pressure is a problem so that is reassuring.

It's a factory twin carb auto if that makes any difference.

Cheers
Evan
1969 1600L Variant Automatic
I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by s.unsworth » 27th August 2013 - 2:15pm

The new one I have which Gower & Lee ordered in for me from Germany in 2010 says VW 6 on the casting, as does the old one. I also have 2 old ones with VW 7 on the casting. I still think you can just unscrew the top cover and turn it so the pipes point the way you want for a Type 3 i.e. looking from the back of the car 10 o`clock & 12 o`clock. Fuel pressure doesn`t really matter for carburettor models, unless it is zero of course. All the pump has to do is deliver enough fuel from the tank to the float chambers. It`s getting enough volume to keep the float chambers full that does matter.

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by Editor » 27th August 2013 - 9:18pm

As the carbs demand fuel, the pressure will drop. However, our twin carbs aren't really any thirstier than singles generally, and the 1600 upright engine has to pump stuff much higher, as well as needing a higher flow rate in the Type 2, I assume, as the mpg is worse on a Type 2 than a Type 3. It seems to me if that pump works OK in an upright Type 2 1600cc, it will be fine on all counts for a Type 3. The only obvious difference otherwise is the plastic cover on the Type 3 one, which may reduce the heat getting into it. In this country, that's not a major problem anyway.
Dave.

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alex d
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Re: Fuel pump

Post by alex d » 28th August 2013 - 11:03am

I think VW6 and VW7 seven have the same rating? I'll check later, but in any case once you put the same rebuild kit in both pumps they are pretty much identical, the different fuel pressure comes from different spring stiffness, so, once you put a new spring in there....
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Re: Fuel pump

Post by 69type3 » 30th August 2013 - 6:03am

Thanks for your opinions chaps. All rather interesting and informative.

As you say once the rebuild kit goes in, the pump will work accordingly.

Fuel pressure in the VW7 pump is 2.8psi. The VW6 is 4.2psi.
1969 1600L Variant Automatic
I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by alex d » 30th August 2013 - 8:42am

69type3 wrote:Thanks for your opinions chaps. All rather interesting and informative.

As you say once the rebuild kit goes in, the pump will work accordingly.

Fuel pressure in the VW7 pump is 2.8psi. The VW6 is 4.2psi.
yes, I just found the info too, they're both supposed to deliver 400cc/minute, but anyway who knows what the specs become once they have been rebuilt with a one size fits all rebuild kit!!

I used a wolfsburg west kit that wass labeled as supposed to fit 30hp engines, go figure, in any case, the tension of the new spring seemed to be similar to a VW6 pump (I had a 6 and a 7), and my (stock twin carb) car runs better than with a brazilian pump, so no complaints here!
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74westy
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Re: Fuel pump

Post by 74westy » 11th July 2016 - 10:07am

Resurrecting an old post..

What is the list on Pierburg mechanical fuel pumps used in VW's. Above there is reference to the specs for VW6 and VW7 pumps. Is this available online somewhere.

I have just brought a second hand VW7 pump which was supposedly for a Type 3 and came from a parts car, plus a rebuild kit. Kit has no numbers on it though. How do you know if a rebuild kit is for a Type 3 or Type 1? Is the diaphragm rod longer of spring tension greater?

Hoping for some info..

Many thanks,
Craig
Craig

1970 Type 3 Fastback 1600TL Automatic (Australian assembled)
1974 Westfalia Camper 1800

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eagle
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Re: Fuel pump

Post by eagle » 11th July 2016 - 10:20am

I've now gone over to a Facet pump. Much better :D I've bolted it to the frame cover plate at the front on a bracket. I used an 8mm 90 degree bend on the way out into the frame pipe. Into the fuse box on an ignition controlled fuse. I'll change it to a switched fuse soon so if I need to work on the electrics I can switch it off.

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by Editor » 12th July 2016 - 11:50am

You've lost the safety feature of a pump which stops if the car crashes. There are impact switches that will do the job for an electric fuel pump - there's certainly a Ford switch for that which others who've changed from a mechanical to an electrical pump have fitted. It does stop the fuel being pumped over a hot engine should the worst happen.
Dave.

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by s.unsworth » 8th August 2016 - 1:55pm

I finally got around to re building my Original Type 3 Pierburg Fuel Pump. I mean the one that was on the car when I bought it in 1988 !
I used a " German Quality " Repair Kit I bought from Custom and Commercial about 8 Months ago. All seems O.K. Tested the Valves by sucking and blowing. Suction ( Inlet ) Valve was passing a bit, so took it off and polished the seat. It seals now. Did not bother knocking the Discharge ( Outlet ) Valve out as it seems to work fine. There is a new one supplied in the kit but you have to drive the old one out and Peen the new one in place. Thought I might mess that up. I made a Jig to push the Lever Arm up whilst tightening the Screws but please can some one give me the details of what it is supposed to be set to ? I have seen 14mm above the Mounting Flange mentioned but I do not think that is possible. The Arm does not move that far ! The most you can get is 8mm I think. I also had a go at making New Diaphragms in the same way as Vintage Werks in Utah do i.e. Very slowly and carefully drill the peening off the top metal plate until it can just be removed. Take it and the old 2 layer diaphragm off. Drill and Tap the Spindle to take a 2.5mm screw. Fit the new diaphragm you have " prepared earlier ". Fasten top plate back on with a suitable screw, washer, Loctite maybe. The drilling has to be very accurate otherwise you may go through the side of the Spindle. For that reason I made a whole new assembly from scratch. Well sort of. You still need all the old parts except the Spindle itself. The 2 Plates, Spring and Metal / Nylon Cup and the Nylon Bottom Bush. Put it all on an M4 Cap Socket (Allen Screw ) with a 28mm shoulder. The head goes at the bottom. A locking nut and washer below the lower diaphragm plate with a washer and thin nut above the top diaphragm plate. Cut the end of your new Spindle off flush with the Thin Nut. Ends up a total length of approx 42mm. I know. The Thin Nut and Washer are on top of the Top Diaphragm Plate but the Spindle only gets pulled down by the Arm. It never gets pushed up into the top cover. I have not actually tried using it in a Pump yet but the day will come !

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Re: Fuel pump

Post by s.unsworth » 11th August 2016 - 7:41pm

Did anyone answer the question about Type 3 Fuel Pump Pushrod Length please ?

Tried fitting my newly rebuilt Original Fuel Pump. Comparing it with the modern Alternator type Pump that had been on there the Lever Arm on the Original Pump is about 4mm inside the Mounting Flange but the Lever Arm on the modern Pump sticks out beyond the Mounting Flange. Looks to me like the Original Pump Lever Arm would not reach the Pushrod at any time. I asked the retired VW Mechanic who put the modern Pump on if he had changed the Pushrod. He reckoned he had not. The one that is in there now is Short, so guessing that is the 100mm length. Do I need a 108mm anyone ?

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