type 3 front needle bearings - anyone done them ?

Angelo Amato · Post by **Angelo Amato** » 10th January 2006 - 11:41pm

yes, the black hole of type 3's (for me anyway)

I got a rust beam wuth good bearings,

got another rust free beam but with dissolved top bearings,

want to swap 'em.

I guess i need a slide hammer.

n e 1 actually replaced them ? how about the seals over them ?

cheers,

Angelo (askin' the impossible)

Post by **Editor** » 11th January 2006 - 12:59am

How rusty is the one with good bearings? Since the rust is usually where it's hidden by the clamp and rubber, it may be easier to weld a repair invisibly that get the good bearigs out and back in the other beam. If there's lots of meat left apart from the holes, it will be strong enough anyway.
If it's expanded the edge seams, that might be more awkward.

You need to find someone who has done the job - probably in their 50s or more by now - and has the right washers for the slide hammer. The danger is you may spoil the bearings or bushes getting them out.

Angelo Amato · Post by **Angelo Amato** » 13th January 2006 - 12:05am

it's got a big hole the size of the lower rubber that gets clamped onto the front beam.

i've had a brain wave and may cut up (and scarifice) the rusted beam to get the bearings out intact.

i've got the bad ones out of the good beam by using a dremel and cutting thru' them.

i've also researched into getting NEW needle bearings - YES - got a lead on a bearing manufacture that may have them !

will keep you posted.

miketyp3 · Post by **miketyp3** » 16th January 2006 - 9:18am

I have a box full of of NOS axle parts if you need any of the spacers or thrust rings. I only have 2 or 3 bearings though. I'm sure I checked and they are not a standard size, but post here please if you find a source.

Mike.

Angelo Amato · Post by **Angelo Amato** » 16th January 2006 - 8:20pm

hi mike,

i've downloaded SKF's brochure for the right bearings, but does look like they're none standard.

but the TOP bearings are so close to type 1 ones, but not close enough.

EDIT:- may be common info, but the bottom ones are EXACT to type 1 ones bottoms (ball joint) even the part no. carries a 311...

so ordered a pair of these from heirtage £10/each. BOTTOM SEALS are the SAME too !

... just these top ones now !!..

and the seals

you got a spare pair ??

Angelo

miketyp3 · Post by **miketyp3** » 17th January 2006 - 8:15am

Hi Angelo,
I'll have to check which bearings I have and let you know.
Thanks for the info on the lowers - I didn't know that.

Mike.

Post by **Editor** » 17th January 2006 - 6:55pm

That's good info Angelo - half way there then.

I've heard of someone sleeving for an upper needle bearing that was a bit under on the outside diameter.
I've also published in a past club newsletter another solution that a former club member Lionel Watkins(recently deceased) used on his Variant. That used a special alloy and he made a bush instead of roller bearing - not the normal oil-lite which wouldn't hold up to the loading apparently. He did a lot of specialist work for the classic motor trade.

Angelo Amato · Post by **Angelo Amato** » 17th January 2006 - 8:36pm

I've just received my lower bearing and seals from heritage - EXACT !

now top ones...

I've found a supplier !

The top ones on a type 3 are 44mm OD, 35mm ID and 20mm wide.

I have found 42mm OD, 35mm ID and 20mm wide.

I give the the no. off the bearing and he said VW also.

Now I need to double check my dims (type 1's are 46x37x20 - so close!)

I am going to try a pair and all I'd need to do is make up 1mm all the way round, could easily be done with 1mm thick strip of sheet metal rolled.

ALSO spoke to a engineers shop and they agreed whith my idea that bronze bushes could be made, however don't think they would be cheap, this guy was quoting me £30 to remove A arm pivot bushes from trailing arms !

Angelo

miketyp3 · Post by **miketyp3** » 18th January 2006 - 6:07pm

I agree, HK3520 (35X42X20) is the closest match, but making up the differance with anything like shim steel i think would be a bad idea.
You might be able to someone to turn you up some rings, but the section is quite thin.

Another solution is, if you have access to a good machine shop; is to get the axle bored out to 45mm and fit some NK35/20's instead.

Mike.

ps just a point of interest - the Type 1 bearings are non-standard as well.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » 19th January 2006 - 9:45pm

Just a thought. What if we all got together and approached a specialist bearing place to make a batch of exactly the right size?
Wouldn't be cheap, but if we got a few 100, I reckon the world wide market would be there (e.g. get T3D to take a load of the stock). There are loads of bods in the US who would be interested, too, I should think. Thing is ... are there places who would do this for less than the earth?

miketyp3 · Post by **miketyp3** » 20th January 2006 - 7:57am

Matt,
I'll PM you, I've an idea....

Angelo Amato · Post by **Angelo Amato** » 20th January 2006 - 2:31pm

the beam CANNOT be bored out - the whole thing is made of sheet steel, the bore is only a 1-2mm thick.

this is what i propose :- bore = 44 new bearing 42 dia. = 1mm less all round. Make a 'circle' of 1mm thick sheet steel to the correct dia (44mm) and this should work. As you said turning one is near impossible.

Think the new bearing have arrived at home so will have a play !

Getting some besopke ones made is very nice, but it's the minimum QTY you need to make it viable. my undersized bearings are £10 each - same as new type 1 ones.

THE OTHER BUGBEAR IS THE THRUST WASHERS - ANYBODY HAVE IDEAS FOR THESE ? (they're metal and plactic)

But let's keep discussing - I'm all for supporting our 'breed'

.... now how can we get creative engineering to make some sheet metal !

Angelo

miketyp3 wrote:I agree, HK3520 (35X42X20) is the closest match, but making up the differance with anything like shim steel i think would be a bad idea.
You might be able to someone to turn you up some rings, but the section is quite thin.

Another solution is, if you have access to a good machine shop; is to get the axle bored out to 45mm and fit some NK35/20's instead.

Mike.

ps just a point of interest - the Type 1 bearings are non-standard as well.

miketyp3 · Post by **miketyp3** » 20th January 2006 - 4:23pm

Sorry Angelo, i was under the impression that there was a solid bit inserted into the beam to carry the bearing load, and its only 0.5 mm all round that needs to come off. I was sumiseing without actually having an axle in front of me.

Anyway, have a go with your bit of sheet metal, and let us know if it works.

Thrust rings eh...

I have a box full of of NOS axle parts if you need any of the spacers or thrust rings.

I have about 20 off 311 401 317A which are for 65 and later, but my parts book is dated 71 - so if they changed after that date they might not be correct.

Also loads of different synthetic spacers which are all unidentified, and a dozen or so early lower seals 311 405 179 A.

The other interesting item in the box is a plain bush that replaces the lower bearing when using later trailing arms in very early axles.
So it seems that a plain bush is a viable solution, and good enough for VW to use.

Mike.

Angelo Amato · Post by **Angelo Amato** » 20th January 2006 - 9:07pm

no worries mike, i'm learning too !

I assumed the same 'till i found the BIG hole in my beam behind the rubber mount and could see 'the other side'. The tube look no more substantial than exhaust pipe! The front beam is very light without the ancillaries. basically it is just pressed sheet steel, no way near as substantial as a bugs.

I assumed the early and late beams were the same ?

My new beam is off a 71 car and the only difference i can see is the tabs that bolted onto my 73 beam to stop the trailing arms coming off by accident are welded instead. not sure on 60's beams.

I will try and find a part no. for the thrust washer.

Would you be willing to sell 2 ?

P.S. my upper bearings did arrive today. they fit the top trailing perfect, will need a spacer to fit into the beam. If I get a chance will trial fit with a shim. They're identical to look at as VW ones. These ones came with seals as these are the only ones available.

Angelo

Jane Terry · Post by **Jane Terry** » 3rd February 2006 - 10:49pm

just an amusing fact when i was looking for the bearings about six years ago. INA who actually made the bearing originally i managed to get in contact with they said they would manufacture them again if i put in a order for 20,000 units. hence i went no further

Angelo Amato · Post by **Angelo Amato** » 3rd February 2006 - 11:42pm

put me down for 2.. no 4 !!!

miketyp3 · Post by **miketyp3** » 9th February 2006 - 11:55am

Available very soon... Brand new upper axle bearings that are a direct replacement (no machining required to either axle or trailing arm)

Anyone interested?

Angelo Amato · Post by **Angelo Amato** » 9th February 2006 - 4:17pm

Mike, i'd still be up for 2, not fitted mine yet. are we allowed to ask from whence they came ?

and £££?

as before, are you willing to sell 2 top thrust spacers also ?

cheers,

Angelo

Harding1600ta · Post by **Harding1600ta** » 15th February 2006 - 11:31am

A good engineering toolmakers workshop would be able to grind the outside diameter of a NK-35 20 bearing down from 45 to 44 dia at low cost. This would only be viable if there is enough wall thickness in the bearing outer ring to stand the removal of 0 . 5 mm.

miketyp3 · Post by **miketyp3** » 15th February 2006 - 1:53pm

It's not quite that easy, but basically yes that's what I was proposing to do.

Angelo Amato · Post by **Angelo Amato** » 15th February 2006 - 6:29pm

problem with reducing the diamter is the bearings are called 'drawn cup' because they're formed from sheet steel and pressed not machined from solid like a wheel bearing is. hence taking 0.5mm off all round is a bit risky i think. I reckon they're no more than 2mm thick for the outer casing.

Post by **Editor** » 15th February 2006 - 8:38pm

Lionel Watkins (the late) produced some solid bearings from Deva metal, which is a load bearing alloy that can be machined. His write up and drawing is at
http://www.vwtype3and4club.org.uk/_docs ... 04News.pdf
in the club publications forum.

I don't know what Deva metal is, but if it's exotic, I expect Mike can chase it up.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » 15th February 2006 - 8:44pm

miketyp3 wrote:Available very soon... Brand new upper axle bearings that are a direct replacement (no machining required to either axle or trailing arm)
Anyone interested?

Yep. I'll take a few sets for the future. I have a beam that I'm meant to be restoring, but its on the back burner like everything else. I'll email the US vwtype3.org list and see if there's any interest there.

Matt.

Harding1600ta · Post by **Harding1600ta** » 16th February 2006 - 11:33am

The SKF catalogue shows bearing NK 35-20 as having a machined outer ring - not drawn cup .Unfortunately it does'nt give any clues as to the wall thickness of the ring. Lional Watkins plain bearing appeared to work satisfactorily however a ' rule off thumb ' for plain bearings is that the width of the bearing should be 1 to 1.25 x the bearing diameter. Has anyone found out what Deva metal is ?

Angelo Amato · Post by **Angelo Amato** » 16th February 2006 - 12:29pm

the plot thickens !

type 3 front needle bearings - anyone done them ?

type 3 front needle bearings - anyone done them ?

Needle bearings

rust

bearings

Needle bearings

upper bearing

How about getting a special lot made

yeah but ,no but, yeah ....

needle bearings

20,000 hmm.....

BEARINGS

front axle bearings

bearings

Alternative to needle roller bearings for front axle.

front axle bearings

bearings